Applauding your exploration of these techniques, documentation is badly needed to support alternative complementary medical practitioners trying to convince patients of the link between sympathetic bias and chronic illness. I am an ex chronic fatigue sufferer, my Oura ring was a help, along with heartmath, in detecting my sympathetic bias problem. One thing most don't know is that extreme breath holding provides an automatic 'reset' for the heart's respiratory sinus arrythmia that lasts for a little while. This is the logic behind Buteyko method breathing retraining: breath holds after light exercise to lower heart rate and stimulate RSA, along with regular practice of resonant breathing with progressive muscle relaxation for dampening sympathetic bias. Buteyko practitioners also teach lifestyle changes to reduce stress because of the link between chronic hyperventilation and stress. This is also true of trauma recovery, the amygdala is basically an emotional memory bank with chemosensors that are triggered by rapid breathing. Kudos to you my friend, you are on the right track.
A timely post for me. I have been using some breathing exercises right before I go to bed - trying to get my heart rate down to below 50. My HRV is getting much better over the past 3 months - I am using the Oura ring to help me.
This is a really interesting read, Marco. Using resonance breathing for those of us with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and/or Long Covid is starting to be recognised as a potential therapy, especially now that we're starting to understand that for at least a number of us, our problems are being caused by our ANS being completely out of whack.
I use the Visible app which pairs with a Polar Verity arm strap to monitor HR to help pace and do a morning HRV and resting HR measurement. They've recently introduced a resonant breathing function as well.
I'm sure you could probably have some interesting conversations with the Visible team about the science behind it all 😊
I was listening to Jack Burke’s podcast, How to become a pro Cyclist, with coach Steve Neal, the use of deep breathing also in training and the benefit to’ the use of that
This reminds me of the studies with high antioxidant supplements (not food!). When a blueberry extract was administered to athletes markers of inflammation were reduced, but so was performance. Similar to how ice baths help but slow adaptions because the body uses inflammation as a signal for adaptation.
I suspect any manual manipulation of the bodies response isn't ideal for adaptation. But like you say, if slow breathing before sleep improves sleep that could have a beneficial response for that specific goal.
great points Dush, you highlighted well differences between acute and chronic responses (which reminds me, this is something where continuous monitoring via wearables often gets it wrong, as they focus only on the short term / immediate change)
Hey Marco, really interesting post. A few thoughts.
One what is the origin of the differences in terms of recovery of parasympathetic activity for the highly trained vs trained individuals. I could imagine that some of the inferred shift towards sympathetic dominance may be functional and help with meeting some of energy demands of the recovery process. In this case I wouldn't imagine shift towards parasympathetic state would be useful or maintained. I would think of this as supply being matched to demand in allostatically useful way. Although to be fair these sorts of recovery processes are not really in my knowledge of expertise.
On the other hand you could imagine if this change is in part driven from a more central mechanism (i.e. one does a harder work than they're used to and this causes some sort of mental stress, to put it crudely). Such that the changes are largely driven from the brain not being able to model/predict what sort of energy expenditure is really necessary post work out. In this scenario I could imagine shifting towards a more parasympathetic state to be useful and maintained. Also particularly interesting for me as an affective scientists what might the feedback effects of these physiological changes be as we go about the rest of our day (i.e. does work start to feel more stressful too).
My hunch is this is hard to know just from HRV measurements but possibly some empirical work that could be done combined with blood work. Overall though I think these are great questions to be asking, and hopefully start zeroing in on some answers!
thanks Kieran! Unsurprisingly, great questions and thoughts from you :)
I think you make a really valid point about the potential need for a more sympathetic state. Reflecting more about this I wonder if there is an optimal somewhere that can be reached by allowing the body to 'do its thing', e.g. gradually get back to a more parasympathetic state, but so that we can aid this process, without disrupting it. For example, this reminds be of ice baths post-exercise, which seem to help acutely, but mess with the recovery process if we do it chronically. Is deep breathing such a disruption or is it more like a nap? Personally I would consider slow deep breathing hours after exercise to be a 'more gentle' approach to shifting towards parasympathetic activity, a bit like sleep / a nap, proper hydration and eating - all of these things help recovery and can shift the system towards a less sympathetic state, but slowly. I do not think there is any situation in which we would consider a nap after hard exercise negative, even if it does promote higher parasympathetic activity, for example. Maybe breathing can play a similar role? Or maybe we override some needed mechanisms, I do not think we have the answers, but my initial thoughts would align deep breathing with mild changes that might aid the process. This being said, this was really useful to think about, and I have to admit it didn't cross my mind earlier, thank you for that.
Regarding the second part of your question, I think we are aligned there. High intensity exercise causes a cascade of events that leaves us 'energetic' in ways that might benefit from slowing down with a breathing exercise, at least a few hours after training (not immediately as I do not thing it is really feasible, not sure if you tried, but it's nearly impossible to do a relaxed deep breathing exercise after training hard). I agree that we can't distinguish between these physiological or psychological mechanisms by looking at HRV data.
Hey - completely agree on all points - was thinking about this post this weekend and one of the thoughts I had which I think is the conclusion of your first paragraph is: some gentle deep breathing definitely can't hurt! If your body needs to be in a more sympathetic state it will just adjust right back towards it.
thank you Kieran, I would agree. I tried to put together an image that shows an example based on the past few days of data (might make a post of this later): https://substack.com/profile/37314582-marco-altini/note/c-71829230 - I addressed some of the points we discussed as well, I think the data shows quite clearly that our impact is limited (i.e. my heart rate is still ~70 bpm when trying to deep breathe a few hours after a race)
Thanks for this - love the piece. I’ve been wondering for a while if the effects of the breathing were durable or transient so this was particularly helpful.
If we were looking at perhaps nudging the body into a parasympathetic state, could we explore other methods like eating? Or do you think there’s more to it than just engaging the PNS and breathing has some other unique factor?
thanks Dave! I think other methods would also work (or not work!). I do not think that there is something specific to breathing, even though it can be easier, more practical and accessible to try slow deep breathing as opposed to e.g. modulating temperature (or else as you suggest), which might also drive a similar acute change. I wonder if we can use 'any' method to shift the system to a more parasympathetic state, and if that does aid recovery.
Okay this is REALLY fascinating. I was just the other day exploring (only to surface level degree) breathing techniques with a friend of mine, in our search for better cardiovascular recovery. This would be so amazing to utilize resonant frequency breathing "as a manual override for the ANS". I know this might be early stage, but do you have any recommendations for experimentation e.g. doing it in the morning, or doing it post exercise? - The hard part, I'm guessing, must be establising my baseline, as to making any improvements comparable, but I am definitely gonna have to try some stuff out!
thank you Kim. In terms of the protocol, I am thinking that it would be best towards the evening, maybe even before bed (this might give additional benefits as there is some evidence of improved sleep quality with biofeedback before bed). In any case, I would do it after exercise, as the idea is to then shift the balance from a highly sympathetic state, to a more parasympathetic one. In my experience it can be difficult to practice slow deep breathing right after exercise or in the hours following exercise, when we exercise at high intensities. Hence I would try later in the day (evening or before bed). I will add these notes to the article.
Applauding your exploration of these techniques, documentation is badly needed to support alternative complementary medical practitioners trying to convince patients of the link between sympathetic bias and chronic illness. I am an ex chronic fatigue sufferer, my Oura ring was a help, along with heartmath, in detecting my sympathetic bias problem. One thing most don't know is that extreme breath holding provides an automatic 'reset' for the heart's respiratory sinus arrythmia that lasts for a little while. This is the logic behind Buteyko method breathing retraining: breath holds after light exercise to lower heart rate and stimulate RSA, along with regular practice of resonant breathing with progressive muscle relaxation for dampening sympathetic bias. Buteyko practitioners also teach lifestyle changes to reduce stress because of the link between chronic hyperventilation and stress. This is also true of trauma recovery, the amygdala is basically an emotional memory bank with chemosensors that are triggered by rapid breathing. Kudos to you my friend, you are on the right track.
A timely post for me. I have been using some breathing exercises right before I go to bed - trying to get my heart rate down to below 50. My HRV is getting much better over the past 3 months - I am using the Oura ring to help me.
This is a really interesting read, Marco. Using resonance breathing for those of us with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and/or Long Covid is starting to be recognised as a potential therapy, especially now that we're starting to understand that for at least a number of us, our problems are being caused by our ANS being completely out of whack.
I use the Visible app which pairs with a Polar Verity arm strap to monitor HR to help pace and do a morning HRV and resting HR measurement. They've recently introduced a resonant breathing function as well.
I'm sure you could probably have some interesting conversations with the Visible team about the science behind it all 😊
I was listening to Jack Burke’s podcast, How to become a pro Cyclist, with coach Steve Neal, the use of deep breathing also in training and the benefit to’ the use of that
This reminds me of the studies with high antioxidant supplements (not food!). When a blueberry extract was administered to athletes markers of inflammation were reduced, but so was performance. Similar to how ice baths help but slow adaptions because the body uses inflammation as a signal for adaptation.
I suspect any manual manipulation of the bodies response isn't ideal for adaptation. But like you say, if slow breathing before sleep improves sleep that could have a beneficial response for that specific goal.
great points Dush, you highlighted well differences between acute and chronic responses (which reminds me, this is something where continuous monitoring via wearables often gets it wrong, as they focus only on the short term / immediate change)
Hey Marco, really interesting post. A few thoughts.
One what is the origin of the differences in terms of recovery of parasympathetic activity for the highly trained vs trained individuals. I could imagine that some of the inferred shift towards sympathetic dominance may be functional and help with meeting some of energy demands of the recovery process. In this case I wouldn't imagine shift towards parasympathetic state would be useful or maintained. I would think of this as supply being matched to demand in allostatically useful way. Although to be fair these sorts of recovery processes are not really in my knowledge of expertise.
On the other hand you could imagine if this change is in part driven from a more central mechanism (i.e. one does a harder work than they're used to and this causes some sort of mental stress, to put it crudely). Such that the changes are largely driven from the brain not being able to model/predict what sort of energy expenditure is really necessary post work out. In this scenario I could imagine shifting towards a more parasympathetic state to be useful and maintained. Also particularly interesting for me as an affective scientists what might the feedback effects of these physiological changes be as we go about the rest of our day (i.e. does work start to feel more stressful too).
My hunch is this is hard to know just from HRV measurements but possibly some empirical work that could be done combined with blood work. Overall though I think these are great questions to be asking, and hopefully start zeroing in on some answers!
thanks Kieran! Unsurprisingly, great questions and thoughts from you :)
I think you make a really valid point about the potential need for a more sympathetic state. Reflecting more about this I wonder if there is an optimal somewhere that can be reached by allowing the body to 'do its thing', e.g. gradually get back to a more parasympathetic state, but so that we can aid this process, without disrupting it. For example, this reminds be of ice baths post-exercise, which seem to help acutely, but mess with the recovery process if we do it chronically. Is deep breathing such a disruption or is it more like a nap? Personally I would consider slow deep breathing hours after exercise to be a 'more gentle' approach to shifting towards parasympathetic activity, a bit like sleep / a nap, proper hydration and eating - all of these things help recovery and can shift the system towards a less sympathetic state, but slowly. I do not think there is any situation in which we would consider a nap after hard exercise negative, even if it does promote higher parasympathetic activity, for example. Maybe breathing can play a similar role? Or maybe we override some needed mechanisms, I do not think we have the answers, but my initial thoughts would align deep breathing with mild changes that might aid the process. This being said, this was really useful to think about, and I have to admit it didn't cross my mind earlier, thank you for that.
Regarding the second part of your question, I think we are aligned there. High intensity exercise causes a cascade of events that leaves us 'energetic' in ways that might benefit from slowing down with a breathing exercise, at least a few hours after training (not immediately as I do not thing it is really feasible, not sure if you tried, but it's nearly impossible to do a relaxed deep breathing exercise after training hard). I agree that we can't distinguish between these physiological or psychological mechanisms by looking at HRV data.
Thank you again!
Hey - completely agree on all points - was thinking about this post this weekend and one of the thoughts I had which I think is the conclusion of your first paragraph is: some gentle deep breathing definitely can't hurt! If your body needs to be in a more sympathetic state it will just adjust right back towards it.
As always I appreciate the thoughts and response.
thank you Kieran, I would agree. I tried to put together an image that shows an example based on the past few days of data (might make a post of this later): https://substack.com/profile/37314582-marco-altini/note/c-71829230 - I addressed some of the points we discussed as well, I think the data shows quite clearly that our impact is limited (i.e. my heart rate is still ~70 bpm when trying to deep breathe a few hours after a race)
Looks great, and I am impressed with the turn around time! :)
Hi Marco
Thanks for this - love the piece. I’ve been wondering for a while if the effects of the breathing were durable or transient so this was particularly helpful.
If we were looking at perhaps nudging the body into a parasympathetic state, could we explore other methods like eating? Or do you think there’s more to it than just engaging the PNS and breathing has some other unique factor?
thanks Dave! I think other methods would also work (or not work!). I do not think that there is something specific to breathing, even though it can be easier, more practical and accessible to try slow deep breathing as opposed to e.g. modulating temperature (or else as you suggest), which might also drive a similar acute change. I wonder if we can use 'any' method to shift the system to a more parasympathetic state, and if that does aid recovery.
Okay this is REALLY fascinating. I was just the other day exploring (only to surface level degree) breathing techniques with a friend of mine, in our search for better cardiovascular recovery. This would be so amazing to utilize resonant frequency breathing "as a manual override for the ANS". I know this might be early stage, but do you have any recommendations for experimentation e.g. doing it in the morning, or doing it post exercise? - The hard part, I'm guessing, must be establising my baseline, as to making any improvements comparable, but I am definitely gonna have to try some stuff out!
thank you Kim. In terms of the protocol, I am thinking that it would be best towards the evening, maybe even before bed (this might give additional benefits as there is some evidence of improved sleep quality with biofeedback before bed). In any case, I would do it after exercise, as the idea is to then shift the balance from a highly sympathetic state, to a more parasympathetic one. In my experience it can be difficult to practice slow deep breathing right after exercise or in the hours following exercise, when we exercise at high intensities. Hence I would try later in the day (evening or before bed). I will add these notes to the article.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense! Following your progres moving forward 🧠