Hi Marco, you mention drinking during training is no problem, is that also the case post training pre measurement? And what time window would you advise post training in order to keep it practical but capture a good re-normalisation?
During the measurement: sitting up, no drinking, swallowing, talking etc. (things to avoid/take into consideration when measuring HRV.
All good questions, I have been going back and forth about this, not so easy to standardize, but my current recommendation would be the following: do the training, come back, avoid drinking right away, sit, take your measurement, say about 10 minutes after finishing training, and that's it. During the measurement, relaxed, self-paced breathing, not forcing it. As we take only one measurement, and shortly after training, I think it is feasible not to drink right away and to drink only after the measurement. I find that for these post-exercise measurements breathing has a huge impact though, hence that's something maybe to experiment with a bit, trying really to keep in nice and easy, relaxed, and not forcing slower breaths. It seems a bit different from morning measurements, in this respect (maybe because we naturally breathe at higher frequencies post exercise).
another good question, I thought the same and tested this for a few weeks, and eventually, I believe it makes the data more unreliable to standardize breathing, because it will never match what you would breathe at after sessions of different intensities, and if you use the guide to breathe deeper, HRV ends up super high but it has no meaning, it’s just the breathing. Hence I would recommend to relax and breathe naturally, whatever rate that is.
thanks Merce! It is possible with the spot check functionality (wellness check I think is currently called). You can then look at changes as all measurements are stored in the watch and visible in the app
Hi! What would be the best way to extrapolate the parameters and outcomes of the Seiler study to adult female athletes of similar training levels (HT and T)? Would the expected VO2 max levels be lower in those groups of subjects, and would the expected recovery time of HR and HRV also be lower, and if so, by how much? If you have any links to relevant studies that you know of offhand, I'd appreciate it. In a brief search I found some studies done measuring morning values of HRV in elite female athletes, but nothing involving pre/post exercise in a population comparing subject groups similar to HT and T in the Seiler study. Thanks :)
thank you Eliza, great questions that should be addressed by a proper study. We had actually talked about this a few times with Stephen, but haven't had the opportunity / resources to carry it out yet. In terms of VO2max, we could extrapolate based on population differences between men and women (10-12 ml/min/kg?), while in terms of HRV, I wouldn't necessarily expect differences, but again, we don't have the data to verify this assumption. I'll let you know if I can find any relevant study, thank you
Thanks! I’ve been using HRV Logger like you suggest here and it’s very illuminating. My HR/HRV recovery time after even 10 min of spinning at 60% of my HRMax is awful, and my HRV post exercise and morning readings are all over the place. Even after 20 years as an endurance athlete. Crazy what a knock to the head will do. Going to try and find more ways to improve my HRV/autonomic recovery in case there are other factors playing into it as well that are more controllable than PPCS dysautonomia. Thanks for your work and these great tools!
As an ultra trail runner, ensuring adequate recovery is super critical and keen to explore this further myself! As an ambassador for 2023, is this app included in our access package?
hello Chris, I measure while sitting, see protocol section here. Just 2 minutes while sitting before and after the workout, with the same strap I use for the workout. Not sure how you would go about logging it as part of the workout data, but if you have a software that would do that analysis for you (e.g. showing your rMSSD every 30 seconds for the whole duration), then you could isolate the pre and post parts and look at the data.
Sorry, I wasn't clear on recording data. I wasn't thinking that HRV would be part of the workout log itself (I'm not sure that the FIT file recorded by Wahoo has provisions for recording that signal from the strap), but rather that pre- and post-collection should just be part of the normal data collection protocol for a workout.
You mention more ectopic beats after a hard workout….that may be even a better indicator of stress than HRV! Any concern about that? (See: The Haywire Heart: How Too Much Exercise Can Kill You, and what You Can Do to Protect Your Heart)
hello Conor, I agree that ectopic beats and arrhythmias in general can be stress related, and stress can be an important trigger, this is probably the case for me too. I also read the book you mention, probably before I had experienced the premature ventricular contractions described here. According to the book, it is the combination of very frequent high intensity and duration or long high intensity efforts that can cause issues (unclear if this is true, but that is the argument made). On my end, apart from seeing cardiologists when this happened - none of them being concerned about my health or exercise -, and managing my exercise by mostly going out at low intensities (in fact for other reasons, but still, this is not problematic according to the theories you bring up), I cannot really do much else (well, trying to be less stressed of course, which I do, including removing other triggers like alcohol). Take care
Maybe you can also track down LT1 with some experimental protocols? An idea could be comparing a training that takes place in upper end of zone 2 and another training in lower zone 3 (5 zone model).
I also have the HRVlogger so maybe I will experiment a bit when training indoors. Thanks for your blogs and sharing your findings, it's very interesting to read.
Are the pre/post measurements conducted sitting in same manner as the standard morning measurement?
correct! same body position and same breathing, nothing different I would say
Hi Marco, you mention drinking during training is no problem, is that also the case post training pre measurement? And what time window would you advise post training in order to keep it practical but capture a good re-normalisation?
During the measurement: sitting up, no drinking, swallowing, talking etc. (things to avoid/take into consideration when measuring HRV.
Thanks for the great blog!
thanks Bart!
All good questions, I have been going back and forth about this, not so easy to standardize, but my current recommendation would be the following: do the training, come back, avoid drinking right away, sit, take your measurement, say about 10 minutes after finishing training, and that's it. During the measurement, relaxed, self-paced breathing, not forcing it. As we take only one measurement, and shortly after training, I think it is feasible not to drink right away and to drink only after the measurement. I find that for these post-exercise measurements breathing has a huge impact though, hence that's something maybe to experiment with a bit, trying really to keep in nice and easy, relaxed, and not forcing slower breaths. It seems a bit different from morning measurements, in this respect (maybe because we naturally breathe at higher frequencies post exercise).
Hi Marco, thanks for your reply!
Would it be good practice to standardise pre- and post workout breathing rate and pace during the measurement?
another good question, I thought the same and tested this for a few weeks, and eventually, I believe it makes the data more unreliable to standardize breathing, because it will never match what you would breathe at after sessions of different intensities, and if you use the guide to breathe deeper, HRV ends up super high but it has no meaning, it’s just the breathing. Hence I would recommend to relax and breathe naturally, whatever rate that is.
Can you track the pre and post workout HRV woth coros watch? Thanks as always for the great blogs!
thanks Merce! It is possible with the spot check functionality (wellness check I think is currently called). You can then look at changes as all measurements are stored in the watch and visible in the app
Hi! What would be the best way to extrapolate the parameters and outcomes of the Seiler study to adult female athletes of similar training levels (HT and T)? Would the expected VO2 max levels be lower in those groups of subjects, and would the expected recovery time of HR and HRV also be lower, and if so, by how much? If you have any links to relevant studies that you know of offhand, I'd appreciate it. In a brief search I found some studies done measuring morning values of HRV in elite female athletes, but nothing involving pre/post exercise in a population comparing subject groups similar to HT and T in the Seiler study. Thanks :)
thank you Eliza, great questions that should be addressed by a proper study. We had actually talked about this a few times with Stephen, but haven't had the opportunity / resources to carry it out yet. In terms of VO2max, we could extrapolate based on population differences between men and women (10-12 ml/min/kg?), while in terms of HRV, I wouldn't necessarily expect differences, but again, we don't have the data to verify this assumption. I'll let you know if I can find any relevant study, thank you
Thanks! I’ve been using HRV Logger like you suggest here and it’s very illuminating. My HR/HRV recovery time after even 10 min of spinning at 60% of my HRMax is awful, and my HRV post exercise and morning readings are all over the place. Even after 20 years as an endurance athlete. Crazy what a knock to the head will do. Going to try and find more ways to improve my HRV/autonomic recovery in case there are other factors playing into it as well that are more controllable than PPCS dysautonomia. Thanks for your work and these great tools!
thank you Eliza, and all the best!
This is great stuff, thanks Marco!
As an ultra trail runner, ensuring adequate recovery is super critical and keen to explore this further myself! As an ambassador for 2023, is this app included in our access package?
thanks Benjamin! Please email us and we can certainly support you
Very informative!
What sort of physical body position do you use during pre- and post-workout HRV collections?
Is it worthwhile for individuals to consider collecting this as part of normal workout data?
hello Chris, I measure while sitting, see protocol section here. Just 2 minutes while sitting before and after the workout, with the same strap I use for the workout. Not sure how you would go about logging it as part of the workout data, but if you have a software that would do that analysis for you (e.g. showing your rMSSD every 30 seconds for the whole duration), then you could isolate the pre and post parts and look at the data.
Sorry, I wasn't clear on recording data. I wasn't thinking that HRV would be part of the workout log itself (I'm not sure that the FIT file recorded by Wahoo has provisions for recording that signal from the strap), but rather that pre- and post-collection should just be part of the normal data collection protocol for a workout.
got it! if you can make it part of your routine, I think it can be interesting to explore, even though sometimes it might not be too practical
You mention more ectopic beats after a hard workout….that may be even a better indicator of stress than HRV! Any concern about that? (See: The Haywire Heart: How Too Much Exercise Can Kill You, and what You Can Do to Protect Your Heart)
hello Conor, I agree that ectopic beats and arrhythmias in general can be stress related, and stress can be an important trigger, this is probably the case for me too. I also read the book you mention, probably before I had experienced the premature ventricular contractions described here. According to the book, it is the combination of very frequent high intensity and duration or long high intensity efforts that can cause issues (unclear if this is true, but that is the argument made). On my end, apart from seeing cardiologists when this happened - none of them being concerned about my health or exercise -, and managing my exercise by mostly going out at low intensities (in fact for other reasons, but still, this is not problematic according to the theories you bring up), I cannot really do much else (well, trying to be less stressed of course, which I do, including removing other triggers like alcohol). Take care
Maybe you can also track down LT1 with some experimental protocols? An idea could be comparing a training that takes place in upper end of zone 2 and another training in lower zone 3 (5 zone model).
thanks Rene, I agree that it would be interesting, this is just some data I collected recently as I almost never run at the upper end of zone 2.
I also have the HRVlogger so maybe I will experiment a bit when training indoors. Thanks for your blogs and sharing your findings, it's very interesting to read.